Residents' Association Forum

Separate from the funding issues, Design is important. 

Is there any way of getting of scanned in dwgs into the forum?  As it will make it easier to debate and agree on design.

How about integrating parking into the peninsular, if car parked head first either side of the island, then I can see about 6 or 8 spaces being created for maybe 1hr parking for shoppers / lunches. After 5 pm and before 10am free.

The easiest way would be to upload then to an external image hosting site such as photobucket (http://beta.photobucket.com/) or flikr (http://www.flickr.com/) and then add a link here.

[img width=500 height=374]http://217.154.230.196/NR/rdonlyres/5C404420-6D08-4534-815A-247E4BCF6B60/0/08_Devonshire_Square_v02.jpg[/img]


are we thinking something of this ilk ?

I recognize that - very close to where I used to work off Devonshire square!!

Thats a much bigger area than we have in TD.

yup it is

I like! 

We could do a half moon with the trees.

Also like the bollards, these are type required along station road.

.....there's certainly some merit in finding a place in the 'enlarged proposal' to plant another lime tree, to guard against a diminutive replacement when the existing tree dies.

I think this idea might have merit. Certainly, worth investigating further. A good start would be to go to Elmbridge's website, download a relevant OS map and then sketch out a couple of possible options and post them on the forum. Before posting, try and make sense of the scheme standing next to the LT during rush hour. At this stage we don't need a treatise, but some of the isssues to ponder include: 

Parking
Traffic flows
Keeping big lorries out!
Public ammenity (seating, aesthetics)
Cost to build
Consultation

When the contractors closed the road to install the power supply to light the LT the road closure (on a Saturday) had minimal impact.  

Just to say that I have been rather tied up since the new year on other matters, but will try to comment in extenso on this and other public realm threads over the weekend.

Highways Contact - sounds positive.  I like the idea of paving the whole area and making the road a no through area.  Combine this with a one way system around the village and we have it made.  Without the one way system the increased traffic coming down Watts Road and Station Road would probably cause the roads to come to a standstill.  Hope we get it done.

I'm not sure a completely no through area is a good idea. Could turn it into a ghost town 

Agree there is a real risk of the village becoming a ghost town - it will literally be bypassed !

Shoppers are attracted by the convenience of driving into the village (from either direction), then parking near the shops.  And the custom derived from drivers who stop off in the village to shop or eat will diminish or cease.

The various detours which would be involved in reaching different areas of the village by car is also likely to deter shoppers.

Mg - stick to the topic or start new thread.

People that cut through off Hampton court way and down station just dont stop off during rush hour, suggest you match from the g an d Balcony! At happy hour.

As discussed before, station road bridge roundabout direction to village could be no through.

Another potential solution to ease traffic congestion, reduce the rat running (and anti social driving habits) but not deter shoppers would be to one-way the High Street from HJC to the hexagonal (e.g. one way north bound). This would allow traffic from the roundabout end of High Street to still access the village and car park without a detour all round to Giggs Hill, whilst also allowing north bound oneway traffic full access through the village and to the car park - but at much reduced speeds and volume. This also negates 'cul de sac'ing' the village. 

Additionally, traffic calming measures could be added from HJC to the Hexagonal to slow the traffic in the one way section. Perhaps chicane style, single width with planting to the sides, creating a pleasant 'green' snaking pedestrian corridor up the high street. The chicane design can also incorporate and retain many of the parking spaces but all. 

Now this would greatly inconvenience me for instance as we use the south bound high street route to exit the village much more often then going via St Leonards Rd - but in the bigger picture it could potentially make for a much more pleasant village environment and work well with the ideas bounding around for the 'lime tree' area. 

Okay, here's a couple of very rough sketches.

The first provides a loading bay for delivery vehicles:

[img width=500 height=363]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/TDRatty/LimeTree001_zps82610d19.jpg[/img]

I suspect the loss of parking will be the most contentious issue - even though it is right next to the underused Ashley Road carpark. 

From the aerial shot it looks like six (legal) spaces would be forfeited.

[img width=500 height=320]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/TDRatty/ScreenShot2013-01-12at140449_zps869c9d17.png[/img]

I thought perhaps providing four pay and display spaces would encourage shoppers to stop off which would be good for retailers as well as provide a source of income to encourage the council funding.
The most logical objection to paid parking on the High Street in the past has been that the requisite machine and signage would clutter the already narrow pavements. However, this would a much more substantial space that should be able to accomodate them comfortably.

[img width=500 height=363]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff485/TDRatty/LimeTree003_zpsd8a9da5e.jpg[/img]

Obviously these are just rough ideas for discussion.

Sorry - Blue Sky - I thought I was bang on topic.  You have to think about how traffic would be changed in the surrounding roads if we pedestrianised the lime tree area.   Any change of traffic through the village would inconvenience me as I use both entrances and exits to the village.  But like Rudi I believe in the greater good!!!    I agree that we don't want to cut off the shops  and frequently stop in the village to pick things up as I am driving to Kingston etc.  So maybe Rudi's ideas are good as they allow car access to the village.  Highways could give good input on what is feasible and what is going to work.

Just seen Ratty's post - I hate to say it - but all of a sudden I am seeing a great space being created for youths to gather and drink!!  Hope that isn't me being too cynical!!  I know that they sit on the benches outside of Bachmanns on the Portsmouth Road and intimidate passersby.  Just a thought!!! (hope Blue Sky doesn't tell me off again!!!!!)

Ratty - good work, both options are worth discussion with the council about next steps etc.

Further parking could created by having head-on parking on the West-side of peninsular, then we can have a combination of loading and 1 hr max paid parking.  

No MG - you're not being cynical - you state a VERY salient point for all residents who live on the High Street and nearby. 

This open space coupled with the probable late licensing of Simply Fresh could potentially be a toxic mix in the dark hours - especially in the summer months! When the phone box used to be by AC Court - where the bench now is (corner of Harvest Lane) there used to be a lot of problems for the local residents with noise in the early hours with kids hanging around, and at that time, the Rose staff phoning home and forgetting they didn't need to shout. Apparently! But that was before the more widespread use of mobiles and cheap overseas calls.

In fact the bench even now - especially on the late night summer evenings - occasionally attracts gobby kids drinking from cans shouting at the top of their voices and keep people awake. 

So very good point to raise - mg. 

Then the police will have to push these guys on, we are not talking central Croydon or even Kingston here.

There is a case of moving that bench more centrally anyhow as I agree it is tucked away / dark in the corner. More front on parking could be created there as I agree it is a little dead space and ill positioned at the moment.

I hope both rudi or mg are not nimbys!

Read my previous comments on many matters and you'll see i'm not a 'nimby' - however considerations of anti social behaviour does need to be addressed in any proposal.... including the cost of car vandalism that last year cost myself and partner approximately £1k. If i remember correctly MG and others have suffered similar incidents...the culprits always £!$$ed up little scrots (sorry, someones sweet little over indulged, exonerated of any responsibility Harry and Georgina) that are yet to join civilised society! So not nimbyism.... just considering some of the fall out.

Oh, and police move them on.... really Bluesky? From which police station will these officers respond from?...seeing our closest is now Kingston (I believe) but this falls under the Met not Surrey. 

Yes the bench should be moved if this plan ever gets off the ground.

Anyway I think the plaza/square idea is great.... as I do traffic calming and reconfiguration. 

Yes Rudi you have remembered well - I had my tyres punctured (twice if I remember correctly).  Certainly not a NIMBY as I live far enough away from the lime tree hexagon not to be bothered at all if groups gather there.  In fact I was just thinking of what I would feel if I DID live near to it and had to walk past it late at night when youths might have gathered there.  Thinking about the "negative" aspects of an idea does not mean that you are against it.  Hopefully the positives outweigh the negatives when all is gathered in and mulled over.  It is, though, only fair on everyone to voice these negatives and not sweep them under a hypothetical rug.

I didn't want to tempt fate by mentioning it, but the spate of car vandalism seemed to end when the previous cliental of the Red Lion moved on. Coincidence? Just saying!

well spotted Ratty.... but yes.... lets not tempt fate!

If it happens again we can still blame the new cliental of the Red Lion, maybe just too many glasses of their very enjoyable Argentinian Malbec!  ;D

Agree with what Ratty said above.  Had whole side of my car keyed as did many people I know. No problems since Dom took over the Lion (said touching wooden floor!)

Of course without detail consideration of the social dimensions of the proposal, there is risk that an intervention that offers a space to sit, wait or gather might also be the site of anti-social behaviour.

The issue is pertinent across the whole of the TD & WG areas and strategies to address this perennial problem should be 'on the agenda' more frequently than the endless Police Reports of 'mopping up'  that take up so much time and page space across RA meetings and publications.

Across the village there are already stores with late opening (selling alcohol), many benches,  a number of phone boxes and street-corners and green areas for sociaI interface. And although I don't think anyone would argue that these aren't either the stimulant or site anti -social behaviour, they also offer convenience and many other social benefits.

In reality there are many different strategies for deterring anti-social behaviour in public open space. Contemporary strategies for 'inclusive design' might offer opportunities for young people to participate in the deign, construction and management of the space through schools, colleges and youth groups in order to generate 'sense of ownership'. The other consideration is that an occupied and well-used space tends to be 'self-policing', and if as suggested earlier in these threads, the management strategies for the open space included dining, informal trading and other social events then this might well be the case here too.

Failing this we could just open our windows and play our Barry Manilow tunes loud ! I've heard that this tactic for dispersing youths displaying antisocial behaviour is successful elsewhere !

Very true there are many benches/open spaces/phone boxes, unfortunately numerous threads on this forum will also indicate that these very amenities, that are used by the majority of people in a civilised manner, are also misused by a minority. 

Example: the phone box at the end of Speer Rd - is it every NOT vandalised? Rubbish issues and youth/group drinking on both Giggs Green and the perennial rubbish problems on Weston Green. 

However all that said - probably the best way to ensure such a civic space (as we're discussing here for the village) is maintained and treated with respect is perhaps to have a CCTV post mounted discretely. This should at least deter all but the most determined individuals - and also save a lot of money on repairs and replacement of furniture/trees etc in the long term. 

Before we get too far from the hexagon into completely restructuring the village traffic layout:  in the exhaustive, and exhausting, consultations on parking from 2005-2009 many of these hobby-horses where given a thorough airing.  There was no support for making the High St a pedestrian precinct from either residents or businesses who actually live and work in the High St.  There ws opposition from the retailers and from many High St residents to making it one-way.  I think I put the details on the parking page which is still there: http://residents-association.com/news/parking.php

I suggest we concentrate on (1) putting the existing hexagon straight (2) getting some improved amenity there which does not require immense and complicated planning and consultation (planting, maybe bench) and then (3) Ratty's rather good idea for this small 'plaza' which would certainly take a very great deal of work, consultation and funding.

There are the threads on highways/parking if residents really want to re-open the issues laid to rest not long ago, and have any new arguments to offer.

I think the reason we have to keep reviewing items like "parking", "one way traffic" etc etc is that the population of Thames Ditton is constantly renewing itself.  There has been a move towards a "younger" population, seen by the need for expansion of the local school, and away from an "older" majority of residents since the initial discussions that Admin is referencing. 

What suited one era of Thames Ditton Residents may not suit another era of residents.  We can't assume, that views will remain the same.  The growing number of families moving into Thames Ditton might have very different needs to say, retired people.

It is important to keep going back to contentious topics and seeing what the current majority feel about these issues.  Getting people's views does not mean anything will change, if, the present situation is the best for the majority of the residents of Thames Ditton.

If you link a mooted alteration of the area round the hexagon, which it seems a number would support, to wider traffic matters where we know very recently a substantial number of people did not support it, then the likelihood of getting people to focus constructively and solely on the hexagon recedes, and with it the chance of getting anything at all done.

I agree admin - if our aim is just to spruce up the hexagon around the Lime Tree  then there is no need to bring traffic into the equation at all.  Looking at the photos/designs people had posted I got the impression that people had widened their ideas to consider a wider pedestrian area in the village.  

For my twopennorth, I agree that the area around the tree needs tidying and possibly protecting from marauding 4x4s.

Other than that, I can't say I'd be that keen to have a pedestrian 'peninsula'.  Not dead set against it, but I rather like it the way it is.

And there are so many other things that need money spent on them - as mentioned on other threads - I think even if it was popular it would be a low priority.

It looks very practical to me Dilys.  The thread hasn't stopped, has it?  Admins is entitled to put his views, and people asked for advise on how to engage surrey.  Are you just making trouble again?  ;) 

No-one has killed the thread.

Admin is entitled to his opinion just as much as anyone else.

I happen to agree with him - that making this a bigger project risks not getting the smaller, more urgent repairs and improvements done -  but don't see why this constitutes thread-killing at all.
Just all part of the discussion.

This is a good project at the heart of the village, the peninsular gets my vote.

Okay, admin - please do put plants and car-park signs down, especially as I note the pedestrian link has been granted consent in the close by courtyard development.  I would suggest, that the council would like to see some revenue generated from the park before making substantial improvements elsewhere.

I drove in their tonight, it was virtually empty - I may now look into getting a permit in there once the passage is opened up as I can't be arsed to spend five minutes every time to find spot. It's well lit and secure, and the best way for residents to give monies to the council for other projects.

In terms of the peninsula, I still like ratty's drawings / proposal. Having just come back from Richmond, how about having some more green space / just grass in the middle rather concrete. I should of took some pics, but at Richmond they have smart knee height black rods ( probably wrought iron) to fend off cars etc. It's a large area and I imagine, grass is in fact cheaper hard-standing apart from the mowing.

"Are you just making trouble again? ;)"  I beg your pardon! 
As they say...."a spanner in the works, works !"

However, I am a little confused. Is ADMIN not an administrator, is it just his/her moniker? If this is correct then he or she is over stepping the boundaries of what an administrator should do, and suggest they should reserve their personal opinions to posts under another username and  use the Admin identity for reporting on fact alone. Even mediation might be considered beyond the boundaries of this role. Should the Chair fullfil this role in the forum too?

Excuse me, but firstly  admin works very hard to maintain this site for us to squabble on, if you look at the number of members it jumps from around 200 to around 600 almost daily, these are spammers who have to be deleted without deleting genuine users in the process. This takes a lot of time and effort and is done solely by admin in his personal time.

Secondly, I believe he started this forum to give us all an online voice about the village so whilst representing the RA is still fully entitled to comment and moderate.

Lastly though and perhaps more importantly, Keith is also a well respected, known and liked resident who is fully entitled to express his views on the village as much as any of us. Why does it matter whether he uses the name admin, Keith or anything else?

We all clearly care about the village and it's good that through debate and yes, sometimes the odd little tiff we will ultimately do some good and make this great place to live, even better.

Thanks Graigvmax. Sorry to have hit a nerve. Thanks for the clarification. Now lets get back to the threads in hand. 

GOSH  Keith is Admin.  It feels like Batman has been unmasked!!!

Grass is difficult to maintain, gets weedy and looks messy it not diligently cared for. Grass would be the west surface to use. 

Have the ladies now withdrawn their handbags???:-) and can Admin come safely out of hiding?  :)

:D

Keith is Admin?
I think I have worked out who is Juninho (do you ride a Brompton) and Rhodrich (nice mo!).
I intend to preserve my anonymity  :)

Yes, I am Admin.  I thought everybody realised that.  I do try to separate my posts in a Residents' Association hat (informational) from those that are entirely personal views.  But often when I'm logged in as Admin (to carry out the sometimes onerous jobs of maintaining the website) I will answer a post straight away to avoid having to log off and log in again.

I'm relaxed about the bickering!  I mean, I've had five kids, and I live in a village, and love 'em all nevertheless!

I am Spartacus!

I do indeed have a Brompton but if you have seen spmeone on one recently and thought it was me well then tis not!

I don't think I have been on my Brompton in well over 6 months ... I often 'change' my commute method to keep my life interesting and my current favourite option is to cycle to Surbiton and leave my workhorse of a bike (which I actually bought off Keith! but thats a story for another day!) there to catch the fast train!

The brompton lives in a box that used to live in front of the door but that space is now taken up by the pram... 

(joys of living in a tiny cottage)

And now back OT: if plants form part of any design solutions (as I hope they do) the question of who is to maintain the plants arises, and who is to fund that.

If your answer is "Elmbridge" then past correspondence with EBC strongly suggests that they would not water and maintain a little bit, but only if there was a lot of greenery under their care.  It is not likely that under the present Cabinet the Elmbridge administration would agree to fund a new area of plant maintenance in Thames Ditton.  Therefore, volunteers would likely have to do it.

Just throwing ideas out there. Given the location it may be that one of the local businesses would be open to "sponsoring" the maintenance of a planting feature. It would certainly make a nice area for the many office workers to eat their lunch. 

With regards to troublesome youth I wouldn't envisage it being as attractive as the bench near Bachmanns which has the combination of a phone box, chip shop and two newsagents combined with good lines of sight to spot approaching parents/police. Having said that, there's always The Mosquito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito) (tongue in cheek at time of writing).

With regards to actually pushing forward with the proposals I would be interested to see what happens with the plans for the communal area next to Lunch and what can be learned from that process. I am happy do do some of the legwork. However, please be warned that I would also like to see the start of the 20mph zone shifted to the entrance of Summer Road from Hampton Court way and have done nothing about that since receiving Admins practical advice back in 2010!! Sorry  :-[ Perhaps I could discuss with PH at the same time.

Echoing Ratty's thinking, the same applies to the small community area by the Fountain, which badly needs tidying up and replanting and which was the subject of PRP architects' draft plan.  That plan contained a suggestion of tables and chairs.  Obviously, this should be of interest to the adjacent lunch bar.  It should also be in their interest to help service any plantings there.  And perhaps the same might be true of Nice Buns and Lime Tree deli who might benefit at least a little from a communal area with seating and planting around the area of the Lime Tree.

Extend the pavement from the Lime Tree cafe to the Lime Tree (tree).  Make the road one way with traffic going around the tree and new paved area on the side of the hexagon without any shops or cafes.  Nice Plaza area created and less traffic fumes to sit in when we are enjoying a Lime Tree/Nice Buns coffee and cake.

(I'm Spartacus )

Hmm.... now I'm a little perturbed!  I don't know who you are, and yet you seem to know who I am, and that I'm currently sporting a handlebar mustache, that I've only had for about a week!

I am usually 2 paces behind you as we leg it up the ramp for the 6.56!
Saw your earliest posts when you moved onto The Green and have seen you about when I've been walking the dog.
Obviously far too English to bound up and introduce myself (plus antisocial in the mornings).
I thought I had Juninho sussed but if his Brompton is 'resting' then I am wrong.
I will have to make the next pub crawl.  Would be interested to meet Bluesky!

Thames dittonite earlier this morning ;)

(http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PFA1461.jpg)

(apologies admin / keith for going off topic again)

Yes you will - I have started a thread on the pub crawl and no one has responded yet ! You could be first!!


I think this applies to all of us ... if only to prove he/she is real (I do not until I meet him/her)!

Perhaps a nice plant feature from the Secret Garden? Ornamental cabbages from Paull's? Erm.. not sure about the undertakers ;)

Yet again, an arrogant 4x4 mother parked her car on the AC car side blocking my entrance out to kingston. I did not say anything as she was a woman!

Although I like Ratty's peninsular idea, in the era of compromise, I think we should try and enlarge the island towards to the AC cars and making it a one way out towards the other roundabout by lunch and double yellow line 30 yards. I know there will be a loss of parking but there is no argument as we have a good community car park in Ashley Road, now with a a new pedestrian entrance. Any resident can park there for free in the evenings and weekends or get a reduced years ticket from the council.

I would also like to see even more double yellow lines in station road and other parts of the high street aswell - it will be the only way to generate cash and push people to use car-park to enable other works in the village. I would suggest any submission to the council will need to address both revenue and safety issues. Station road and roundabout just are not safe, not mention the bumps.

where had she parked exactly?

Why exactly not? If you don't say something then they will continue to park inconsiderately and without recourse! My other half right royally told off a woman the other day for doing just that.... nobody is untouchable! especially 4x4 drivers.... i saw that with a certain amount of irony as we also have one! 

I agree, but she seemed a bit scary and I was in a rush so could not be bothered.

Also, thought - do we not have a local PC, where is he/she?  Can he/she not be more based in the centre of the village.


Also noted tonite, do we have a new P sign parking, it's quite high up on a street light and is also squint or maybe we need two. I also like to see one on the tree.

I like the idea of  ratty's scheme with the parking but please, please, no parking meters.  The scheme and the other schemesin the forum are however pipedreams because obviously  there is no money for them.  I cannot imagine for a minute that Surrey or Elmbridge will spend on expensive beautification schemes while basic things like roads need repair, and there is a crying need for infrastructure like more school classrooms, drains and other things where there is new or more dense building.  It looks as though pressure to build on playing fields, parks and other spots of green will get worse if the Minister for Planning has his way.  I suggest effort is devoted first to preventing loss of these places and to getting the councils to do a better job of repairing what we have got, then to the really urgent areas of public expenditure like education, health and the care of the elderly.

Of course if some benefactor can be found to pay for these beautification schemes then that is something else.  Then it might be worth going through all the planning and consultation and regulation that would be needed for this Lime Tree scheme or the others.  Without the money it's too likely to be a waste of time and energy.

In the mean time, please please can we get the councils to put the Lime Tree roundabout in order?  Its a focal point for the village and its in the conservation area and it looks awful.  Perhaps some variegated ivy to cover the ground around the tree trunk and even grow up it to hide the ugly wiring for the lights?  Although I guess that would damage the wiring or make it hard to see what wire goes where.

Perhaps the money could be a combined commuity and village trader fundraiser via the summer and winter village fairs. This would be a good way that these events begin to benefit the local community. It would give the fares a better contex and a sense of achievement. Perhaps even a barometer in the village with the amount we aim to raise aka Blue Peter appeal. 

With regards to placing ivy under the tree, this would not be a good Idea as it would end up killing the tree.

How about one of the estate agents, who also have an invested in the village being a hub for charity donations. HJC seems ideally located, and probably has a vault being the old bank!!

They could even flash up takings on their screens and maybe about upcoming events.

We also need some prices for; 

1. The Lime tree - to mend

2. The Lime tree - peninsular

3. To remove one bump

4. To remove 5 bumps

5. Cobble strips

Interesting precedent across the river: 'Hampton to get its own village square?' (http://www.hamptonpeople.co.uk/Hampton-s-village-square/story-17995178-detail/story.html?ito=SPT)