Residents' Association Forum

Since the trial period of operating both runways simultaneously at Heathrow commenced on 1st November , I have  noticed a considerable increase in the number of flights going over the TD area throughout the day and up to about midnight. Although the noise level at present is in the tolerable range, there has definitely been a noticeable change which may become even more marked in the summer months when we are spending more time out in the garden, doors and windows wide open, etc. The present trial is due to run until some time in Frebruary 2012. There will be a few months reprieve and the trial will recommence on 1st July through to 30 September 2012. Anyone who feels strongly about this or has concerns that it may get out of hand, can lodge a complaint now on the BAA website. For information, Richmond Council is operating a special on-line complaint facility for Richmond residents who are monitoring this trial period. I am not aware that Elmbridge has set up such a facility so it is very much down to the local residents to complain directly to the BAA.

Welcome to the forum, Ditty, and thanks for raising this (I had noted an increase in noise but as the distribution of flight patterns changes according to wind direction and some other rotation factors I thought it might have been 'normal').

What do others find?

The BAA link is: http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/site/heathrow/menuitem.f03e69d4cefdf3c524ba4a109328c1a0/

I agree, myself and other half have definitely noticed an increase in aircraft noise. Especially in the evenings ( however that may be due to the fact that I am at work during the day so cannot hear it )!

I was very conscious of it last week, but like Admin thought it was due to wind direction (and possible problem with windows).

If you go and stand in the middle of the green at around 730-8pm count how many aircraft light you can see. 24 is the highest count so far. It does seem busy up there.

Thanks to Admin for posting the link to the BBA site. I have been to the site and made my views known.

I believe it is important that as many people as possible register their views with BBA during this trial period which ends in February 2012 as there is a real risk that the use of both runways at the same time will become permanent.  BAA argue they need to be able to use the second runway in order to minimise flight delays. However, I have noted that the frequency of these flights since the trial started is so great - at times less than 10 minute intervals, that it seems to me like  "normal business" not just the odd flight  being diverted the second runway in order to mimise delays.
It's a most unwelcomed development for Thames Ditton.

Thanks to Admin too.
I've just accessed BAA's site and made my views known!!!

likewise, I have also circulated across the island.

A thought.. could this go in one of the display boards in the village so more people see it?

A good thought.  I'll flag the subject up on the home page (missed the mag, now at the printers) and we can also flag it up at the RA stall at the Christmas fair and at other points, as you suggest.

Ditty: will you be the point person on this issue, please?

Aircraft noise was one of the main preoccupations of residents (and the Association) in the 1870s-80s. (See my potted history of the RA here: http://residents-association.com/pdfs/consult.pdf  The lesson from that was that to get anywhere (which we did) you need to band together with other adjacent regions, otherwise the authorities will simply trample (or fly) over you.

It is hard now to see how exactly the case can be made - any keen person here with a decibel meter? 

anyone have any links with Hampton court RA?

Also maybe speak to HRP ?

I'm a bit confused by all this though.
???

Can someone help explain exactly how we think the impact is because of the trial?

I see the aim of the trial is _reduce_ stacking time and essentially the biggest change I can see is the dual use of runaways (i.e. use both for both arrivals + departures). Nothing about the number of flights?

That actually makes sense to me and I understand this can happen currently for arrivals during Tactically Enhnced Arrivals Mode.

What I don't understand is how the number of flights have increased? Or how this is linked to the trial.

In fact in the Q&A - it specifies this is NOT mixed mode and explicitely states:
"This trial will not mean any increase in the number of flights at Heathrow – Heathrow will remain capped at 480,000 aircraft movements a year."

SO... if we are seeing an increase in numbers of flights over TD - then is that not just a case of wind changes, etc?

If the objective is to reduce late running (this is good - as flights we hear after 10:30 are late runnings I am told) - and reduce waiting time in the air surely we should want these measures?

Or am I missing something here?


EDIT: I have a cousin who lives in East Molesy who is a pilot (he flies out of Heathrow) so I will try and canvass his opinion/explanation!

Juninho - the short answer is that we don't know yet.  That's why someone has to take this subject on and run with it.  Ditty has spotted this and brought it to notice.  It needs to be looked at.  If there turns out to be no real problem, or no net increase in a problem, OK.  If not, you'll find that we need loads of information to have any chance of defending a TD/WG interest in the matter, in time to try to do something about it.  You can be sure that BAA will not be remotely defending the interests of the overflown.

I have meanwhile emailed EBC to ask whether they are monitoring, and whether they have background base data on noise and duration before the trial.  I'll post the reply here/forward to Ditty.

Ok thanks - I think I misunderstood some of the previous postings.

I read them to be a 'we should object to the trial' as opposed to a 'we should monitor what impact the trial has on us and be ready to object if necessary'!

We definately should monitor during the trial and if as you say there has been an increase oevr TD just because of the dual use then yes I will object too.

But I have to confess I think the theory behind the trial is well founded. i.e. I believe the propoganda (if you like!) that this will actually overall reduce air traffic/ noise if we dual use the runaways... AS LONG AS the number of flights stay the same!

So I am hoping the trial proves to be a sucess - as long as that sucess is not a detrimental on TD.

We do / did have an expert in the village - Ben Ellis (see his admirably neutral view on the third runway proposal, a while back: http://residents-association.com/news/heathrow.php)

The overall intention may be to reduce delays without increasing flights/noise, but if using the two runways means an alteration in flight patterns after take-off and in the approach stack, we may (or may not) find that TD & WG now get a bigger share of overflights.  To establish that is going to take a some research and badgering - which is why we need a member to act as point person.

Or two members - Ditty, and with a different starting view, Juninho!

The noise was incredible last night. I eventually fell asleep after midnight!

Elmbridge's reply on this is as follows:
"The Council enforced legislation relating to noise control is specifically precluded from applying to aircraft, either fixed wing or helicopters.

You can contact:

British Airports Authority which handle aircraft noise complaints from the public for Heathrow:

Telephone 0800 344 844 or

email noise_complaints@baa.com

General information and an online form for making a noise complaint is available on their website
http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/controller/dispatcher.jsp?ChPath=XYZHeathrowNoise

Information about aircraft noise (but not complaints) is available from
Civil Aviation Authority:

CAA House,
45-59 Kingsway,
London WC2B 6TE

T: 020 7379 7311
www.caa.co.uk

In addition information about aircraft noise (but not complaints) can be obtained from Department for Transport. They deal with noise from aircraft and those especially associated with Gatwick, Heathrow, Stansted and local aerodromes (including helicopters).

Frequently in summer when there are still dry hot conditions Heathrow switches to easterly landings and take offs.  When this happens aircraft taking off in an easterly direction then turn on to course which takes them over Molesey and Esher particularly and this cause more noise from aircraft than when the airport is using westerly take off which is most of the time.  A summer increase in complaints about aircraft noise can be expected.
"

I'm advised that Ben moved out to the West Country a few years ago.  So the position of airports expert adviser to the RA is open...

Would a pilot be ok?

Or are we worried that he would be too self serving!!!

;)

Our cat snores all night as well !!

;D

oh you meant the aeroplanes !

A pilot also resident in the locality could be useful (there are quite a few, given our central positioning between Heathrow and Gatwick)

Getting ready for work this am 07.30 - 08.00 and a total of 6 planes went over our back garden - loudly!!!!!
Have also logged my concerns with the Noise Complaints email address kindly posted onto the forum.
Wonderful for my other half who works shifts and doesnt get to bed till 2am some days - bet he is loving the new flight path! Not.

(http://residents-association.com/news/images/airport.jpg)

an air purifyer in your bedroom helps a lot, constant low hum drowns out exterior noise and makes it a nicer place to sleep too.

** Response from Heathrow Airport **

Dear Ms Gilroy ,

Many thanks for your email about the forthcoming trial at Heathrow. I will log your response which will feed into the data we provide to Department for Transport. As this is a trial I cannot predict exactly what the impacts will be and we will use the trial period to gather this data. 

Most of the time at Heathrow one runway is used for landings, and one runway for departures. During the trial, at certain times, both runways will be used for arrivals OR both runways will be used for departures. Dual arrivals and dual departures will only be used on a limited basis and never together.

We are fully aware that some residents are concerned about the potential impacts of this trial. This is not a trial of ‘Mixed Mode’ as has been construed in some areas of the media.  Nor will it mean an increase in the number of flights operating in to or out of Heathrow.  Heathrow remains capped at 480,000 flights per year.  However it is likely that the number of flights out of the usual runway alternation pattern will increase.

BAA, the airlines and Air Traffic Control (NATS) believe that the procedures being trialled at Heathrow have the potential to bring benefits to the local community through less late-running flights; to passengers, by providing a more punctual service; and to the environment, by reducing aircraft staking times and reducing emissions.

Before any final decision is made on the permanent use of the procedures at Heathrow, the data will be reviewed and assessed in terms of the impacts and benefits to residents, the environment and passengers.  There will also be a full Government consultation with the communities affected and other stakeholders.

If you are still concerned and would like to talk anything through please call the community relations team on 0208 745 5791.

Kind regards,
Heathrow Community Relations

Meanwhile, Craig has kindly passed on some large files from Heathrow about their operations and noise, together with a reply to his enquiry. Thank you Craig. 
See:
http://residents-association.com/pdfs/Heathrow_Trials_Nov2011.pdf[/url]  [[ basic text of reply, Craig's particulars removed ]]
[url]http://residents-association.com/pdfs/Night flights 11.pdf[/url]
[url]http://residents-association.com/pdfs/Departures 11.pdf[/url]
[url]http://residents-association.com/pdfs/Easterly_departures_map.pdf


In a nutshell, there should have been no net increase in noise during these trials, but Heathrow state that in November  there was an unusually high proportion of 'easterly operations' due to prevailing winds this month.  From the map they provide for easterly operations, all the flights heading down to the south coast fly over Thames Ditton as they are climbing.  They don't provide a detailed map of westerly operations - just a sketch from which the pattern looks similar, except that planes arriving will be throttling back rather than climbing and I am supposing that the consequent noise is less.

I am supposing also that if two planes are taking off at the same time along the dual runways then if they are both headed in the same direction we might get the noise from both at more or less the same time, but that is just a guess of mine.

I would also add that of course our own perceptions of noise are likely to be greater simply because we have been paying attention to it since this thread began!  It's so difficult to form an objective view without some benchmark and technical means of measurement here.  Is there an enthusiast with a decibel meter to do this as a hobby, much as our weather-man Tom maintains rainfall and temperature records for Thames Ditton?

In my working activity as a H & S Officer ( only Mon - Fri 9 - 5, before people start panicking )!!! I do very sadly have access to a noise level meter. ( have to carry out noise level risk assessments in my work place ).
Unfortunately at the moment, it is in Hebden Bridge - Yorkshire at our Northern branch, but this is something I could do once I receive it back ( may not be till after Xmas though ).
Would be interesting to do a couple of dB readings at different times of the day, and a comparison with common equipment / processes we use in my work place. This would give people some good comparative goal posts.
Will keep you posted!

Excellent.  Yes, I think it would be useful to have decibel noise readings as a benchmark at certain sample periods of the day / night (of around ten minutes) for:
ambient noise without aircraft
ambient noise with aircraft overhead on days of westerly operations (wind from west)
ambient noise with aircraft overhead on days of easterly operations (wind from east)

I seem to recall from my research days that you need a minimum of six readings for a number such as this to be taken as statistically significant within +/- 3%.

Once those figures are established, and we keep a record, then in future it would give us the benchmark needed to establish whether changes in flight patterns / runway use / aircraft types had any significant effect.

Of course that says nothing about the frequency of flights, for which we have to rely on the airport  operators' figures.

Very quiet today, though they say all the flights are running in spite of the strike.

That Leveson Inquiry In Full:

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....
My montage from earlier article (http://residents-association.com/news/heathrow.php) on Heathrow, referenced here on 22 Nov:
And the Elmbridge Guardian of December 1 2011:
(http://residents-association.com/images/guardian.jpg)
ROFL

Brilliant pics!
Have received another reply ( more conclusive and very long winded ), from the Noise Complaints Dept @ BAA.
Various PDF documents attached providing some interesting info, but I do not know how to attach to the forum for others to read???....
Obvously can't copy and past them due to them being PDF copies.
Any IT related training on how to do the above would be appreciated.
Thanks!

The pdfs may well be the same as the one I put up here from Craig earlier - check this post: http://residents-association.com/forum/index.php?topic=552.msg5207#msg5207

Take a look at those and if yours are different, email them as attachments to me, or post them elsewhere on the web where you have some space, and link to them.

The frequency of the planes passing over as result of operating the both runways at the same time, is compounding the noise level we are currently experiencing.

That was my interim conclusion, too, Ditty.  We are getting two planes close together in time overhead, so up to double the noise at that moment, while the 'average' noise may be no different over time.  We notice it during 'easterly operations' because the departing planes are climbing, which is noisier than when they are over us during 'westerly operations' and are throttling back as they descend to arrive at Heathrow.

It would follow that we should ask traffic control whether it is possible for them to arrange that planes taking off simultaneously immediately stagger either their timing or their route sufficiently to ensure that only one plane at a time is making noise as they climb over Thames Ditton and Weston Green.

Anyone find weaknesses in that argument?

That was my interim conclusion, too, Ditty.  We are getting two planes close together in time overhead, so up to double the noise at that moment, while the 'average' noise may be no different over time.   We notice it during 'easterly operations' because the departing planes are climbing, which is noisier than when they are over us during 'westerly operations' and are throttling back as they descend to arrive at Heathrow.

It would follow that we should ask traffic control whether it is possible for them to arrange that planes taking off simultaneously immediately stagger either their timing or their route sufficiently to ensure that only one plane at a time is making noise as they climb over Thames Ditton and Weston Green.

Anyone find weaknesses in that argument?
We should definitely raise the question to apply to the trial period but we should not give the impression that we accept the operating of two runways simultaneously as a long-term or permanent solution.

I noticed yesterday (when I was in hampton court palace park) - about 6/7 planes in a holding pattern... !

So are we saying the dual use means that two planes fly over head at the same time causing too much noise? and that we would prefer the noise to be over a longer period but quieter?

i.e. - the same flights would fly over head... so its a case of say up to double the noise or half the noise but we hear it twice?

Is that what we are concluding?

I spoke to my cousin (the pilot) about all this and he did say he had noticed that the conditions meant more flights over head (he lives in east molesey). Keith mentioned this too.

He did not _think_ the dual use meant more or less noise -> but he also said he would not know this for sure.

He did say it should mean less holding pattern flights overhead - which he thought wasa good thing for both noise and air pollution? ... during the day time its barely possible to hear these I guess?

I guess if it was obvious knowledge we would not need the trial !!

If you don't know this amazing website: http://www.flightradar24.com/

Any doubts that Europe is the centre of the world?  Check out the scheduled flights currently over Europe, then those over North America, Asia etc.....

With a month to go on this has someone been collecting some data on this?

I did notice a lot of overhead noise last night - we were at Hampton Court Palace on a 'ghost tour' and it was a bit of a shame almost every 3-5 minutes to hear a plane overhead...

But I still think its not necessarily based on this trial.

When this was last raised, Valentino had kindly volunteered to get a decibel meter and take some readings: http://residents-association.com/forum/index.php?topic=552.msg5209#msg5209

Or you could apply to EBC for a 'noise toolkit' and a meter and get some benchmark data.

However, I strongly suspect that the noise volume will not cross the rather high threshold at which the authorities recognise a noise as unacceptable.

It seems to me that since the period of more easterly winds at the start of this thread, the noise problem has got less - or one is habituating to it.  There will be another trial period in the summer, if I recall correctly.

The current trial period runs into February, so it's not over.

The frequency of aeroplanes passing over Thames Ditton throughout the weekend was high.

You can see on the a/m flightradar site, when you zoom in to Heathrow, that operations are currently again in an Eastwards direction in this anticyclonic weather.  And during the five minutes I have been watching, you can see them using the northern runway for landings (so Windsor and Datchet are getting the brunt of that) and the southern runway for take-offs, with not many at the moment then turning south to fly over TD.

Amazing non-commercial website!

Independent: "George Osborne is secretly pushing for a third runway at Heathrow airport" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/heathrow-tories-secret-plot-to-build-third-runway-7584591.html)

A third runway would be very bad for Thames Ditton and Weston Green.  Not only would the number of flights hence the noise increase; but inevitably there would be renewed calls subsequently for more access roads/rail from the South West quadrant.  Any planner looking for the cheapest way will, as happened several times in the past, propose building a motorway from the A3 over our commons and across the Thames.

The Association was formed partly to counter plans in the 1930s to build a bypass over our commons (the route chosen was eventually that of the present A3).  The idea of an orbital road or light railway across them to open up Heathrow has cropped up at least twice since then, and been beaten off.  It will assuredly crop up again as a consequence of any further expansion of Heathrow.

my parents staying on the weekend distinctly noticed more plane noise than on previous visits

Plans to build more runways at Heathrow and Gatwick airports have been rejected by Surrey County Council (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19967273)

There does seem to have been more late night aircraft noise over the last couple of weeks.

Pleased the council is on the side of the residents over this (though the fact that feels like the exception rather than the rule is a bit disturbing!)

But now the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10047497/MPs-reject-Boris-Island-in-favour-of-third-Heathrow-runway.html) Want ' “long overdue” action to build a third runway at the UK’s only hub airport and permit more air traffic, a call supported by some of London’s leading businesses.

Rejecting proposals championed by the Mayor of London for a new airport in the Thames Estuary, committee chairman Louise Ellman said a new runway at Heathrow is “necessary”.

She added that expanding it even further into a four-runway hub which could rival European airports may also have “merit”.'"

And BBC report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22469502

I've noticed a lot more late night flight noise recently.

Replying to the initial post (sorry that I have not read the full thread)


I was under the impression that both runways had always been used - one for planes taking off and one for planes landing?

One plausible explanation of increased noise since November is wind direction. During the very cod period, we had a high pressure system sat over the UK, this meant that in the SE we had winds from the east (I know as I have had to cycle against it most days into London).

When winds are in the East, planes need to take of into the wind. Aircraft destined to the south (France, Spain, Africa), or further West (USA, Caribbean, Canada and South America) will depart the south runway and turn right - over us in Thames Ditton as they pass to the south. The planes heading to the west start their turns west shortly before they get to Sandown.


When the wind is in the west, the plains heading west and south miss us. Planes going east turn right and go northerly until they are heading on the right track.

So to conclude, East wind means noisy times for us in TD, whereas wind from the West (thankfully the prevailing wind) gives us quieter times.

Thanks Mark.hawkins - that is really interesting indeed

it was particularly loud on the last 3 evenings although could purely be down to having patio doors open

It was bad. My understanding is that if there is no wind the direction for taking off is rotated.

....and a new runway perhaps in the offing.

Deep joy  :(

Midibob

I thought I would make the most of my retirement yesterday and sit in the garden.....apart from planes every 2 minutes; hammering from one house renovation; pile driving concrete from another; electric paint stripping from decorator two doors away; constant dog barking and a crying baby plus toddler in hob nailed boots on decking.  Summer at its best!!!

you just need someone to light a really acrid smelling fire and all bases ticked!

Turn your stereo up, open all windows and doors, and put some repetitive heavy-bass music on to complete this auditory dog's breakfast!  Oh, and park your car in full sun so that the alarm goes off every thirty seconds.

I did not mention the builders "treated wood" bonfire, as the smell was in the house!!!!

Still finding the aircraft noise much more than it used to be, especially late nights 10 - 11.30.

Is this to do with the new flight paths they've been trialling? Better for a lot of people but not so good for others, I heard.
Maybe we are the 'others' !

Interesting report here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24432162

Does anyone think we have an increase in aircraft noise of late?  I'm think we do, especially in the evenings.  I wonder if this heathrow trial is making a difference to noise over Thames Ditton...?

http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow_Noise/Downloads/PDF/Easterly_departure_trial_2.pdf

certainly a number of residents on the ATD facebook page are showing concerns

I've lived in Kingston, Surbiton for the last 14 years and moved to Thames Ditton 2 months ago, the plane noise is louder and more frequent that I ever expected ; my front door rattles when they fly low.
I've noticed increasing media on this in the last week with an article in Kingston Comet and a petition on Teddington Town ,with an email address to log a complaint with Heathrow about the noise (noise_complaints@heathrow.com).
It's an issue I feel we need to be vocal about , i've read if the winds are coming from the east, the planes take off in that direction, which it has been lately - hopefully the frequency will reduce with a change in wind, else we're stuck with this til Mid Jan 2015 and perhaps permanently in the future.

There is a link to the petition regarding the trials here (https://www.change.org/p/community-communications-officer-stop-the-heathrow-airport-easterly-departure-routes-trial-and-not-make-the-changes-permanent).

The maps that you can access from the petition site show many fewer flights over TD during the trials!
This doesn't seem right to me at all - there have been many more loud and low flights at 10-11pm ish and a couple of nights ago a couple at about 2am (not quite as loud but loud enough).
So I don't understand, I'm afraid.