Residents' Association Forum

There have been several discussions over the past two years concerning the idea of a Farmers' Market in Thames Ditton.  Discussions appeared to stall owing to a disparity of views, particularly among retailers for whom the risks of such a market may be seen as more acute.  Residents seemed more in favour of the proposition provided the viability of our remaining shops was not undermined.  See earlier threads:
http://residents-association.com/forum/index.php?topic=253
and
http://residents-association.com/forum/index.php?topic=734

In the interest of wider and more systematic consultation a group of residents has now put together a preliminary survey of villagers' views on a potential Farmers' Market in Thames Ditton.

Over the next few weeks the group will be posting a questionnaire through letterboxes.  There is also an online version (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/P3ZQYZJ) which they have prepared on SurveyMonkey.

Please engage with this survey/questionnaire and make your views known, so that any initiative to emerge is based on the best possible information and consideration.

You may also like to raise points in this thread for wider discussion.

EXCELLENT NEWS already filled my online survey. Well done to whoever has taken on this initiative for us all.
:-)

Filled in!

I assume you are happy for me to forward on the survey link by email to people who may not log onto this forum (but residents of TD or East Molesey)?

Please let me know.

Yes, why not - the organisers may want to distinguish between TDWG residents and the wider area, so do ask your contacts to be sure to enter their postcode so as not to skew results.

done

Will do!

The Ashley Road car park is the only public area suitable for the farmers market. There is also the private courtyard area in AC court that could be utilised on a Saturday. Richmond do a similar system in their courtyard development behind the Riverside terraces on some Saturdays.

Other options are the Library Car Park or on the Green.

I fear that there is not enough room on the high street  for stalls unless the proposed Lime Tree peninsular is granted.

Do you think it might feel a bit like a car boot sale in the car park? A pedestrianised high st once a month as per the Christmas Fayre could feel more community based, no?

Agreed. If it was in the carpark/green/library it would be detached from the high street which is counter productive from a cohesive point of view but also more importantly, the high street shops wouldn't benefit - which should be one of the key driving factors for having such an event.

(I was drafting this while rudi posted):

I would see the aims of the market as:
1. To bring more life to the village
2.  To increase footfall and bring in visitors from outside the village so that:
3.  Our existing shops become better known and frequented too
4.  To broaden the availability of consumer items i.e. the range

There are clear sensitivities among our retailers and I am sure that no residents would want to see their viability suffer, rather than be enhanced, by pushing a market proposal.  I hope that there can be a constructive way forward which takes proper account of those who will be most affected.  Aside from retailers, that includes residents in the High St.  Let's suppose that on a weekend, offices would be largely unaffected (Is that the case, offices?)

The closer a market is to existing shops the more likely they are to benefit too from increased footfall during such a market.  The more distant from the existing shops, the more likely a market is to draw customers away from the shops on market days.   The High St itself would be preferable.

However, there is limited room, it is heavily parked up, and if road closure had to be sought that would complicate matters for the organisers (who are going to have to do a lot of work anyway to administer such a market) and could lead to unpopularity with other road users.

If just a small number of stalls, say butcher, fishmonger, couple of deli or national cuisine stalls, cakes/puddings, leather goods, garden supplies, then they could perhaps be located outside AC Court with one arm of the Ashley Road junction closed off.  This would be a useful test of a 'plaza' in practice.  It would not seriously disrupt the other life of the village.  With a restricted space it would also be easier to administer and to limit stalls to those which would not compete directly with High St retailers.

Of alternative venues, Giggs Hill Green and the Library car park might be possible.  But would they help the High St shops to draw custom? Or would such venues draw footfall away to that end of the village? (Debatable)

Ashley Rd car park is quite an attractive alternative, but a market held in it would obviously reduce parking there on market days (the spaces rented on period season tickets must be kept available for the holders who have paid for them, clearly); and it is likely that Elmbridge would demand a fee.

Might it be worth approaching Caring Homes to consider the Home of Compassion?  The Boyle Farm Rd side of the HOC is close to existing shops; Caring Homes have said they would look favourably on community uses; there would be no need for road closures/permissions; no loss of current parking; against that, a nascent market would have to decamp during the expected building works.

Viability of shops:
If the market is pursued, could its organisers grant permits only to stalls which do not compete directly with existing shops?  For example, I am sure that Paulls would see a fruit and veg stall as undermining their viable custom.  Mehra's also sell a few items of greengrocery, and Simply Fresh is (on the face of it) going to stock greengrocery items too.  Greengrocery stalls - as implied by 'Farmers' in 'Farmers' Market' - could be the last straw.  The Lime Tree stocks cheeses and Italian deli items.  Mehra's stocks some Indian items.  Could deli market stalls be limited to other cuisines? (French, Chinese?).   Bachmann's cakes are so outstanding that I don't think they need special protection!  In short, if such a thing is legally and administratively possible, I should like our shops to be reassured that only stalls which add to the range of things available, preferably in a completely different sector, and not those which offer items directly competing with them, would be granted permission.  It strikes me that this might be easier to assure if a market took place on privately-owned land (HOC) - are there any experts on such regulations reading this, who could comment with any authority?

I would also like to see preference given to stall-holders according to their connections with Thames Ditton and the immediate locality.  Can we help the market to be home-grown in every sense? I would not want to see a market which attracts low quality tat, cheap back-of-lorry items from everywhere.  

I have further thoughts but that's enough for now.

If the market is intended to attract outside visitors then it needs to have a wide enough range of interesting items to do so.

While I agree about fruit, veg and also flowers, the range of deli goods stocked in the Lime Tree for example is very small ( I used to go there for cheese and ham when they first opened, but they seem to have now focussed on the cafe side and the wait is too long and range too limited to make it a 'destination'.) Likewise, there is jam on sale in the post office, craft items in Stitchery and Bradley Brown, bread in Nice Buns. I think using that argument would limit the range of the market so much as to make it unviable.
The retailers would need to see it as a way to get their shops noticed by outsiders in the hope that they would come back another time, rather than expecting to sell more of their own stock on the day, IMO.

Anywhere that is also a cafe would probably benefit from that side, too, so it's swings and roundabouts.

I fear people get confused by the term 'Farmers' Market'. I have yet to see one that has fruit and vegetables on offer so Paull's need not worry themselves unnecessarily. Typically stalls offer artisan produce and speciality foods along with representation of a few local organisations. Assuming preference is given to Nice Bun's and Bachmanns,  the only produce I could foresee competing with the shops is freerange/organic eggs, but Mehra's only seems to stock eggs from caged hens anyway (which is a shame). In fact I could imagine Nice Buns' bread sales doing very well from the extra footfall.

The only real option for this to work would be to hold it somewhere on the High Street if it is to fulfil the role of putting the 'Heart' back into the village and reminding/educating people as to what the permanent shops have to offer.

The FM in Richmond in the square beside eBay's offices works well, but does not have the same objectives. I'm not sure if the FM in the car park of the Marquis of Granby is even still going? As discussed previously, the Maple Road event in Surbiton provides the optimum template in my view and the very fond regard the TD Christmas Fair in the High Street is held in proves how much these types of initiatives are appreciated by residents.

Are there any thoughts on what the money raised from issuing stall licences would be used for? I am hoping the aim would be to support projects that benefit the local community and its amenities.

Ratty - i think you are 100% on the nail with everything you said. Maple Road would be by far the best template to take, that and Ripley.

The survey looks as though it is very much geared to helping the organisers potentially select the right traders/produce and categories that local people want to buy from and avert any cross over with existing shops. This information when shared, should then naturally benefit the existing retailers in the high street too. For example if it comes out that many people want organic/free range produce then this might help existing/new businesses realise a gap in the market from their own offering - ensuring that they gain potentially new and consistent business in the process.
The whole purpose of a FM should be complementary and help our existing retailers with footfall. These markets are not a free for all, and from my understanding the selection/participation process of traders is very robust to ensure no cannibalisation of local businesses, and poor traders are filtered out.
Its a good morning out for the family and if Maple Road is anything to go by a massive success for retailers and stall traders. Its actually put Maple Road on the map...

the above two posts make a lot of sense.

Bi-monthly or Quartely would be my suggestion, as any purchase would be a special.

I quite like the French market in Esher, which only comes twice a year and you can get stuff u can't get in the UK. French wines would also be welcome.

I will second what Rudi and Ratty said. I feel that quarterly or Bi-monthly is just a toenail gesture. The last or first saturday of the week would be greatly beneficial.

I agree with AC court, if this is to happen it should be on the AC court side. Perhaps a banner or signage should indicate forthcoming events. Either way, the farmers market should not encumber residents enjoyment and they should so recieve a small income from the stalls for high street improvements.

E.G flower baskets
Signage
Pot for peninsular (this may take a while, but it's a start)
Some new seating near AC court steps

Surbiton's Maple Road FM has won the 2013 UK Farm Retail Awards from FARMA (The National Farmers’ Retail and Markets’ Association) for the best Farmers' Market.

For anyone still unsure whether something similar would benefit Thames Ditton it is worth popping along to Maple Road tomorrow (Saturday Feb 18th 9-1pm) and seeing for yourself what might be possible.

I saw this also, as we're on their email distribution list. What an accolade out of the x750 Farmers markets in the country! as i said before - its put Maple Road on the map :-)

As surveymonkey has limited capacity for free accounts, and there have already been many responses,  the organisers have now added a fresh link for the online survey here. (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/P3ZQYZJ)

The paper version has been distributed through some letterboxes already, and I am told that more drops will be made this week.  It's up to you to avoid duplicating your responses so that the results will be an accurate summation of individual views, rather than skewed by multiple responses from the same individuals.

We saw some copies in the Red Lion last week and I asked my OH to fill one in (which she did and left it there).

Here are the results of the survey (http://residents-association.com/pdfs/Farmers_Market_responses.pdf) flagged up in our home page splash item.  And a superbly presented survey too.

Survey organisers Damian Kingsford, Mark Charlesworth, and Sarah Eddy hope that after digesting these results, readers will engage in further discussion.  They are also  looking for volunteers to help with taking this forward.   While so many can support the idea of a periodic market as outlined, to stand a chance of practical implementation it will need some commitment of volunteer time and energy, so if you want a market - and the vast majority do - please step forward!

email info@thamesdittonhighstreet.com

What an excellent survey. Well thought out questions, great distribution and follow up of surveys and excellent presentation of results. A few observations. Everyone wants to be able to buy meat and fish locally.  This is likely to extend beyond a periodic farmers market to week days and Saturdays. We do have  elements of a "farmers market" during the fares and these work well. Witness the food stalls etc., but these enjoy very high footfall that won't be replicated at a farmers market.  A farmers market with meat and fish would be a good market research vehicle for any prospective operator to assess viability of a permanent shop. One small complication is that a meat or fish stall would need electricity or would need to operate from a van. Successful farmers markets overcome the electricity hurdle. My guess is that a viable famers market needs a critical mass of at least five or six stalls which will help to determine minimum space requirements. I'm guessing that each stall needs to be circa 2 metres deep by 3.5 metres  long (bit of a finger in the air), so let's say 2 metres by 14-18 metres long. The market would also have to ensure that traffic isn't impeded.  There will never be a perfect location but a starting option has to be the Ashley Road car park which would require Elmbridge's permission.  The obvious model is the Surbiton Maple Road market which many of us use.
http://www.surbitonfarmersmarket.co.uk/about-us.html  The next date is July 20. If anyone goes it would be useful to have feedback on which stalls we would like to see.

Andrew

Thanks are due to the organisers of the survey who have carried out this slightly ticklish task in an exemplary way.  It was an outstandingly good survey and presentation.  I noted particularly the interesting chart overlaying items currently bought in the village with items  that people would like to see at a market.  There are obvious implications for our High St retailers whose trading interests must, in my view, be respected.  A logical approach would be to start with the intended small number of stalls to offer those items which are sought but where demand is not currently satisfied.

I like the suggestion that a market could be used by potential new traders to 'test' demand for certain products, fresh meat and fish being the most desired, with the aim of opening a permanent outlet in the village if proven.

As to where: the car park is a natural choice but it too might present administrative problems and expense.  Then, road closures are unwanted but what if just the one branch out of Ashley Road was to be closed (c.f. 'Leafy Plaza') so that half a dozen stalls could be planted in the heart of the High St by the octagon without blocking access to the car park and Ashley Road?  Or the courtyard space to the rear of Hawes/Angela Kane?  A couple of years ago PVK was talking about eventually developing that area as an outdoor cafe etc., and with 'Pip's Walk' open from the car park the site, if there is room and a will, it would avoid impinging on public space if that was an advantage?  But is it big enough - I must go look again.....

I think it would be more pleasant there than the car park but i do wonder as you say if its large enough

The HoC has nice open riverside grounds... !


;)

I just checked it out - it would be large anough for half a dozen, if those who park there are willing; and if the houses were prepared to put up with a temporary blocking of access, there's room for another four or five stalls lining the access past the archway.

But those are big asks.

Another spot I looked at just now is the pavement outside Harvest Lane along Church lane.  Without blocking anyone, but requiring pedestrians to walk in the (very quiet) roadway (which many do anyway) you could get about four stalls.  Might do for a 'specialist' area e.g. four secondhand bookstalls, four antiques stalls etc.??  After all, there's nothing to prevent a market consisting of three or four small areas on or just off the High St, each area perhaps with a 'specialist' theme?  Might be fun browsing around, spread the footfall....  What do others suggest?

Keith - the location you suggest, the area between AC Court and the tree - (basically the triangle and through route from the high street to Ashley Road) is the location we (the organisers) have discussed with the council and potentially offers the most suitable size/location. This location still successfully integrates the high street shops (which is what it is all about) as well as offering a central focus for the customers.  We currently believe about 10/12 stalls would fit this area (without parked cars etc) which is about the right number of stalls for the village to sustain but still offer variety and selection. Also importantly this position will still allow access into the car park and negate the need for any major road closures, which isn't desirable on many levels.

Rudi, have you been talking to SCC or EBC about using the "triangle"?  When you  do speak with them you can say that we closed the road at this point to lay the cable for the Xmas lights this didn't cause any problems to traffic flow. This was on a Saturday. Good luck with project.

Thanks Andrew - useful info.  Discussions have been with EBC at the moment although the community development officer has been talking with SCC rep.  Making contact with SCC directly is the next step to sort out the planning, safety etc, but we felt EBC was the correct first step to get their buy-in.  Location, access, size of market (number of stalls) and the type of things to be included (hot/cold food, alcohol/specialty beers etc) were always going to be on the list of challenges to discuss and resolve, so these things amongst others will help establish whether the market is really going to be viable or not.  This obviously needs SCC and EBC agreement for the respective elements.

Look why d.....ck around with this market when the village is already over-crowded with cars parked on the street and we have bumps that ruin cars.  I can see sense in a market if something will go towards improving the basics in the village.

If not, don't bother!

I don't see any correlation between speedbumps and a proposed farmers market?

I get irritated by the speedbumps too but I think you're getting too hung up on them, they arent the basics of our village, the basics are the surroundings, the people, the community and the history here in Td and as long as they don't impede/compete with the trade of our current valued shops then why not have a farmers market?

I think that bluesky enjoys being provocative! 

As to priorities, with any issue it's  more a case of volunteers coming forward to do the serious work of studying the real options, the regulations, the funding; reporting back for consultation, and generally powering things along.  Parking has been the object of exhaustive study and consultation over the past decade and the route for residents to put further suggestions to SCC Highways Dept. has been clearly outlined.  There is also a move to resuscitate the earlier plan to have a few short-term free bays in the High St, which was accepted in those consultations then scuppered by the Surrey leadership's disastrous attempts to impose paid metering on such bays.    The bumps likewise have been the subject of endless discussion and a volunteer to 'own' the issue would be welcome, but with scarce funds already inadequate to fix deteriorating roads things do not at the moment look promising.

With the market, however, a new area of initiative, we see again what a few energetic volunteers can do by way of proper consultation and reporting back to the community; and now volunteers are needed to do the work of setting up and running such a market, complying with regulations, standards and by-laws and navigating the inevitable differences of local opinion over detail.   We are grateful to them all.

Well said Keith. I concur!

And I also agree with the sentiments about the content and presentation of the survey results (looks of a far better quality than some of the presentations I have seen prepared by consultancy's... ).

I can't wait to go to the first Thames Ditton farmers market!!!

For the summer fair - I did hear of some people complaining about it as it blocked off their access.

To avoid this I think the suggestion keeping the access to Ashley Road + Harvest lane (and the car park) open makes perfect sense.

Bump bump this thread - is there any news ? Any help that may be needed (not that I am volunteering just yet... but would like to help if I can!).

We finally made it to the Maple Road Farmers market in Surbiton this Saturday and it really is lovely.

All the existing shops, pubs, resteraunts all benefit massively from the extra footfall and it was a wonderful atmosphere (helped in no small part by the opera singers performing out of the balcony on top of the french restaurant).

I can easily see Thames Ditton accomodating a slightly smaller size market in say for example the triangle (as rudi suggested) or Ashley Road car park (a shame to lose the car parking spaces there though).

Edit to add: Molesey have one too now (apologies if this has been posted before):
http://www.hamptoncourtvillage.co.uk/Molesey-Farmers-Market.html

theres going to be a car boot in the car park, different thing I know (and not instead of)

That's a good idea! :)

I see car boots there every time there are cars parked!

;)
(ho ho ho)

I can't remember the last time I have been to a car boot sale ! When is the TD one? Should be fun (I love picking up old vinyl records - this in spite of the fact I don't currently have a working record player!).

from the ATD facebook page:

Thames Ditton Car Boot Sale.
Initial stages of planning for the first TD Car Boot sale on Saturday October 12th, in the Ashley Road car park from 9am - 1pm.

Thank you kindly!!

The car boot sale was today I believe (had to work... ). Anyone on here go? How was it?

Yep, I went, seemed to be a great success, some very nice stuff there too!

I put a couple of pics on ATD Facebook earlier.

Nice to have the path from car park to highi street open too, albeit temporarily

Another thread bump...

I can't believe it's been over a year when we first had the survey re farmers
Market and were discussing it.

Anyone know what happened? Was it just not feasible? Survey indicated it would not work?